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Aug 6, 2014 19:41:16 GMT
Post by brownie on Aug 6, 2014 19:41:16 GMT
Ok questions on your thoughts:
I am not aloud to say so many things so I'm going to obey and give a maybe situation and would love your input. I hope I can do that.
At church a new couple came to visit, my husband being an elder invited them to lunch with us, our pastor and another family. They are new to the area and looking for a church. Well we had a nice lunch, but the wife noticed some bruising on my arm, and asked what happened, it's a nasty bruise on my right forearm and looks ugly as bruises do once you have them a few days. I immediately shared my "reason" slipped on a wet kitchen floor and hit the counter. She said, wow it looks like someone grabbed you and my husband jumped in and said yes I did I tried to catch her. He then went on to tell them I had to much to drink and we are "working" on that and I often say and do things that are wrong and out of character because of my "problem"
i was so embarrassed and upset I started to tear up and I know my face was terribly red. The lady just looked at me like I was crazy patted my arm and said she would be praying and if she could do anything to help I could call.
When we get in the car my husband tells me what an idiot I am that if I hadn't pushed up my sleeve up no questions would have been asked and I should be grateful he didn't tell her what an idiot I am all the time. At least with the drinking I have a chance to prove myself and get better. He then ranted and raved for like two hours but I am grateful no punishments came.
Ok so let's "pretend" this really happened because again no sharing aloud. My question is this, he said when he was ranting I'm an idiot and will never learn I need to accept the fact that I will always be forced to learn the hard way. Now usually I turn off when he rants but for whatever reason my mind went back to my son. He had the hardest time in school learning his Multiplication facts, in fact writing and reciting didn't work. However I had to teach it to him through song and he could remember. I know stupid, but I thought if I really am an idiot which I know I'm not very bright, then why do you keep trying to teach me the same way? There has to be some way for me to learn to be a better wife. Suggestions???
Now please forgive me for sounding prideful I'm not meaning to but what if the issue isn't me?? I'm just feeling really tired today I guess and not wanting any more lessons or sharing. Not sure I can handle one more night of sharing. I have always been told when I can't stand it and hate it that means I need more of it because my flesh is strong.
Anyway sorry for going on just thinking a lot today about what life might be like away, with my kids and no husband and even no church as horrible as that is.
Where do I take my mind next. Brownie
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janine
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Aug 6, 2014 20:04:55 GMT
Post by janine on Aug 6, 2014 20:04:55 GMT
"What if the issue isn't me?"
This is RIGHT on. The 'issue' was never you Brownie. It never will be. Your husband is an abusive man and he will keep leaving bruises on you, no matter how hard you try. Why? Because he wants you to fail.
Your life CAN be very safe, happy, close to God and calm- if you do choose to walk the path of love, safety and peace. By that I mean the path your children took when they left the church and started a healthy life away from their abusive father. You can do that too.
I believe in you.
It takes time to leave- it is a process, not one single event.
There is nothing wrong with you. You are a normal, human being, wanting to be loved, cared for, to enjoy your faith and your children and life.
I do hope for you that some day you attempt to get away again- like you did before. That you cut all ties with this abusive man and church. That you allow yourself to be with your beloved children and a life that is safe, filled with love and laughter and good night sleeps. Until then, stay safe. You know his abuse best and how to survive through it all.
You do not have to live like this. Deep down you know this.
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Aug 6, 2014 20:23:02 GMT
Post by brownie on Aug 6, 2014 20:23:02 GMT
I want sweet sleep, peace and most of all to be able to see my children whenever I want. I want to NOT attend church for awhile, I know that makes me a horrible person and I'm sorry for feeling that way. BUT getting from point a to b is another thing. I need to be sure it really is him and not me, I really do believe I am an idiot and need him to survive. How do I test this to see for sure???
Maybe my sole purpose is to be his helpmate and do whatever he needs and my fear is if I leave things will be worse for me. Bad things will happen because I gave up and didn't trust. My mind is very confused I wish I could talk to someone. Is me thinking I should leave the cowards way out? He told me last time that I was a coward and before I left I was making progress and getting better and things were on the upswing. I left and I caused everything to be started over again. I'm afraid of that. I can't take going to the cabin for another week or counseling to re train my mind again honestly. Is it better to stay and deal with the normal day to day stuff or leave and take a big chance of getting caught and brought back??
I'm just now getting a little freedom again I can be left in the house alone no chain. The daily lessons are stopping. I feel like should I stay now that it's a little better? Is it better to have to endure a little rather than chance it?? I'm sorry but these are my thoughts and I do desperately need your input. I know my brain doesn't work well so I need help in that area and I am never around people I can ask.
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janine
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Aug 6, 2014 20:38:54 GMT
Post by janine on Aug 6, 2014 20:38:54 GMT
You are doing great in seeing the bigger picture and have every right to question what is going on.
I cannot repeat enough how NONE of this is your fault. You are ok. You are a normal, intelligent human being. You will just never ever get him to see that too because he wants to abuse you. So does his so called 'pastor'.
brownie, you do not ask for much.
You have every right to want peace, a stable home and contact with your children. It is ok and normal to want that. It is very, very normal, that you are suffering right now and wonder what thoughts are really yours, and what thoughts have been forced upon you by them.
I sent you an email of a woman who escaped a similar situation a few weeks ago via inbox- but you can also google 'religious abuse' and see if you can find an email to someone who escaped a cult-like environment, like the one you are in right now. Having someone who went through a similar situation like yours might help as the church/religion aspect can be huge of course.
I cannot answer your questions about staying because things seem a bit better right now. I am not in your shoes and it must be incredibly hard for you with the belief system that was forced upon you to think about leaving.
I can answer this though, as no matter what religion your husband claims to believe in- he is still an abuser. Abusers do not change. You cannot create a 'calm marriage' and you cannot change him or the situation.
It is impossible. He will never treat you how you deserve to be treated. And you can think and try harder and do whatever you can- it has never changed it. It never ever will.
Again- he will not change. Ever.
Your children are out there. They can help you find professional counseling once you leave so that you do not have to go through this alone. Out here on the normal world many, many women live in peace and safety. There is no abuse and churches are places of happiness and true love. Of course you can also choose not to go to church-it does not make you less of a person or bad. It is how the real world works like and this is probably what Jesus and God would want- a place of love, trust and safety anyways!
I cannot make you leave nor do I want to make you do or think anything. You CAN think and act for yourself. You do NOT have to convince me or anyone else about how 'it really is not that bad or even got 'better'-- as we do not live your life or cannot see our children. Normal mothers can see their babies whenever they want. Normal husbands support their wife to see her kids.
Your are normal- but your husband is not. I wish you that one day you find the power to leave him for good. That is all I can say about your years of suffering.
Stay safe.
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Aug 6, 2014 21:12:04 GMT
Post by brownie on Aug 6, 2014 21:12:04 GMT
I think I spend so much time trying to do the right thing the right way day to day I'm exhausted to think beyond it. I am going to google what you suggested even though I feel so much like I'm doing wrong and being deceitful!!!! I really feel like today I'm ready to talk and have so many questions. So many days I feel so foggy and out of it. Thank you for sending me the email I will go check my inbox now
Brownie
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Aug 7, 2014 3:19:12 GMT
Post by brownie on Aug 7, 2014 3:19:12 GMT
Ok so I spent some time looking at google and cult abuse. I am a bit confused now. I see many things that are the same here in my husband and church pastor.
One thing is that as a good girl I must obey at any cost. This will prove my obedience. If I want to become holy and acceptable I must obey. I'm reading that this is wrong. So if it's wrong how do I prove I'm a Christian or good girl? How do I learn? I know it sounds so stupid.
I also read that sexual demands is another area that they have total control over. This is true. But how does one make it stop, I'm not allowed to say no.
I'm torn as I have read these things part of me believes it and part of me thinks of course they will say that, that's what the devil wants me to believe. The easy way is never Gods way. My natural man wants me to believe it should be easy and nice as a way to pull me away from God.
I think I may do a test and see. I started reading Steve's book and may do one of the tests at the end of each chapter. If it's really about control he will not pass if it's not he will, right? I'm thinking about saying I see how wrong I have been the past two years and how sorry I am and how I am willing to do whatever it takes to make it right. If he is doing the right thing, I would imagine he will be happy with that and I should be in the clear. If he is looking for reasons to hurt me because he enjoys abuse he will find a reason to not be happy with that answer.
Well, thoughts please!? Thanks for listening once again. Brownie
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janine
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Aug 7, 2014 13:51:59 GMT
Post by janine on Aug 7, 2014 13:51:59 GMT
You cannot change him. You can try all you want brownie- you will find yourself losing another 10 years to him, with little to no contact to your children, just how it has been so far.
I hope one day you find the strength to break away and allow yourself to live a happy life. You deserve that.
It is so sad for me to see how abusers can really take away a woman's life, and rob her off every last bit if happiness and healthy spirituality. He has brainwashed you so well that you of course must think whatever you read elsewhere is the 'devil'.
You will not find any advice that helps you make him better or teach you how to be a better wife. This is abuse. Not love. This is a cult. Not loving religion.
It is not your fault.
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Aug 8, 2014 17:26:14 GMT
Post by brownie on Aug 8, 2014 17:26:14 GMT
Well the more I read and research the more I understand and at the same time the more I'm confused. It's just very hard because every time I read something that I feel like yes this seems right, I hear my husbands or pastors voice in my head telling me why it's wrong.
I'm trying to stay focused on what I know is true, but I even question if it is truth. I guess I'm really screwed up.
How do I begin to sort through all of this??
For example, not seeing my children. Jeanine1984 when you said you were afraid I would lose another ten years with him and not seeing my children I literally got sick. Inside, deep down I feel like it's wrong not to see my children. I love them. In fact anyone who hears that outside of my home/church is appalled at that. Which is really only the people on this board and my children. However he tells me that by seeing them it's driving a wedge in my relationship with him because they will fill my head with untruths.
I guess I'm really questioning what he is saying to me. Again, other side is telling me how wrong it is to question. I'm in my 40's at this point and thinking I will never meet the standard. I have been with this man for many many years and am still not doing anything correctly in his eyes.
My son will be getting married soon and I want to be part of that.
Maybe when I am confused, I should think of what my husband would say to me and do/think the opposite? I know that would mean I'm a disrespectful wife and I would be in major sin.
Does leaving mean I am breaking my relationship with my husband AND God?? Part of me wants nothing to do with either. I know that makes me a horrible person. I sometimes think wouldn't it be awesome to just run far away and not have to think about either of those things??
Am I way off base here? Do I sound like a crazy lady? Am I being selfish? Is it a bad idea to think the opposite of him?
Sorry if I'm rambling, thanks for helping brownie
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janine
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Aug 8, 2014 19:24:27 GMT
Post by janine on Aug 8, 2014 19:24:27 GMT
Hey brownie,
You do not sound crazy or selfish or off base. You are also not rambling. You are also not being a bad wife.
You are a wonderful person, with a ton of love for your children in your heart. You are a caring mother and you want to be there, when your baby is getting married. What a fun and important day this will be for your son and his wife!
I think if you get the courage to break away and give yourself the chance to connect more to people out there who believe in you, who mean well, who want you to live a happy, SAFE life,...you would be able to organize your thoughts, see clearly what has been going on and work through a lot of this trauma.
It might never be perfect- you might wonder for the rest of your life 'what if' I had stayed ten, fifteen, twenty more years. MAYBE he had changed. The question is- if he has NOT yet changed- what would be different when you grow slowly into older age- and have lost out on years with your children and ultimately rob your children and grandchildren of loving memories with grandma?
Why is one man- even if he is your husband- more powerful, more important than your own babies and grandchildren- what God would want that? I doubt any God.
And it is totally fine to want to take a break from religion. Man, I bet your heart is JUMPING out of joy just daring to think about a break from all of this. You know, I am very impressed that after all those years of living being told what to think, do and feel...that YOU still have this golden light shining in your heart. That STILL inside you long for your children and a better life than this.
He robbed you off so many years already. It is in your hands to break free and choose a path that is loving, patient, safe and with your children and future grandchildren.
I am so glad you find our board a helpful contact. We are always here- no matter what you choose to do. Leaving would not be easy- of course not. But staying sounds like a never-ending hell on earth to me really.
If I picture you ten years from now- you know what I see?
I see you sitting in a cute little house your son and his wife own. I see him having pictures of you at his wedding on the walls. Where you smile. Where you dare to be HAPPY. I see you holding his first baby at the hospital. Again...HUGE smiles. I see you work a nice job as maybe a secretary of a nice, small company. Being loved by her coworkers, bringing fresh baked muffins to work. Feeling accomplished about bringing your own money home. Maybe you even start babysitting your grandchildren and have dinner at the table with your children and their spouses and kids every day or on every weekend.
I see you take walks with your children and grandchildren. I see you dance to music with the little ones- reading them books at night as good night stories. I picture you walk barefoot in the sand at the beach with them, making sure they collect beautiful sea shells. Maybe you even help them learn how to swim- and then cook them a warm lunch after they have been in the water all day! Sun on your skin, the wind in your hair. I hear sea gulls, I hear the laughter of these kids that call you 'grandma'.
I see them, long after you have passed away, many, many decades from now, lovingly look at their picture albums. Grandma hugs them and has them on her lap. They remember you, you mean a LOT to them. You mattered so much. You gave them safety and kindness. They remember the amazing times they have had with you.
.....did that picture feel right to you?
....now I would like you to think back to these past years with your husband and the pastor. How would this image look like if you do not leave? What picture do you think your God would prefer? Would your God be happy that you played the natural role he gave you as mom and grandma? That you chose life, and meaningful activities and purpose, over slavery and being locked away from our beautiful world? I wonder.....
A big hug.
Deep breaths.
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Aug 9, 2014 20:57:11 GMT
Post by been there before on Aug 9, 2014 20:57:11 GMT
Brownie-
I was reading on this website for help in understanding abusive relationships. My friend is in one and I am trying to help encourage her as she is in the process of leaving. I just wanted to say that I was in a religious cult my first year in college. I left because everything in my heart (and gut) told me it was wrong, even thought the church was teaching what was supposedly "right." I also didn't like the way they were treating people. They would treat some people better than others and I knew that wasn't right.
It took me a long time to sort out truth from the lies they taught me. It was really difficult because sometimes my teachers included a little truth with the lie, and it got really confusing.
A book that helped me along the way was called: "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by Jeff VanVondern. You can probably purchase it inexpensively on Amazon. I checked mine out from the local library. You could also order and purchase it from a used bookstore (usually they don't charge extra for shipping-I am in the U.S., so I don't know what it would be like in the UK).
An IMPORTANT NOTE: IF you do get the book, I would hide it at a friend's house or maybe at a nearby park under a rock. Make sure that your husband or anyone else with the church doesn't know you are reading it!
Another thing that really helped me was to find other people who had similar experiences to me. Sometimes in a cult, your mind just gets twisted around a little, and it can be hard to think straight. Having someone to talk to can help a lot. A website you may find helpful is: ICSA (google it). It is called the International Cultic Studies Association. They have a service where you can leave a request and a professional will call you back and talk to you for a half an hour for free. You could also google: UK and cult support groups. Talking to someone who has been in a similar situation is invaluable.
I also wanted to tell you that after I left the cult I felt like I hated God. It was incredible scary for me to feel that way. I had grown up loving Him, and I knew He was good. What had happened though, was that the cult had twisted my view of God into a being who was controlling, vindictive and mean. I had to re-learn, in a sense, what God was truly like. It took some time for me to do this.
One more thing and then I will be done. :-) When someone is in a spiritually abusive church, the leaders will often tell a member that if they leave that particular church, they will be leaving God and God's will for their life. That can be very scary for a member. The last thing you want to do is walk away from God (although you may feel like you want to because of the view of God that the church has given you). The leaders will tell you all kinds of frightening things, like "If you leave, you will be walking away from God, and you will get a terrible disease, or you will be in a car crash, et. None of these things are true. Sometimes the leaders may not say these things out loud, but will subtly mention former members and say "Tsk, tsk, you know what happened to so and so."
But, I am here to tell you that these things are not true. Many members have been able to leave spiritually abusive groups and after finding some time to heal, are thriving. They have families and good jobs, and are able to be themselves again. It doesn't mean that it might be painful to leave or scary, but they are not being punished by God for leaving.
I probably won't post here again. But, I just wanted to send a little encouragement your way. Also remember that there is a verse in the Bible that says: Children are a gift from the Lord.
Best wishes, Rebecca
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Aug 13, 2014 23:10:44 GMT
Post by janine on Aug 13, 2014 23:10:44 GMT
Hey been there before, thank you SO much for this post!
I know brownie will appreciate it when she is back with us. It makes all the difference to talk to someone who has been through similar things- other people just cannot really understand what it is like and how complex the abuse is.
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Aug 15, 2014 21:39:17 GMT
Post by been there before on Aug 15, 2014 21:39:17 GMT
Hi Brownie-
I was thinking of a few more things that might help you. In one of your earlier posts, you asked, "How do I know I am a Christian or a good girl?" You mentioned that when you obeyed immediately, that was proof that you were good, or proof that you were obedient.
It sounded like you were wondering, if I don't obey my husband immediately in everything, doesn't that make me disobedient or in sin?
One of the things that religious cults try to teach their members is that any decision we make is either right or wrong. Every decision we make is either black or white, and that there is no grey area. They teach if you don't obey immediately, you are sinning. If you stop to question anything, you are in sin.
This makes it almost impossible for a member to take a deep breath and think about anything. An important part of being a human being or a Christian is having time to reflect on your life. You can reflect on decisions you need to make, reflect on good things in your life, or reflect on choices you made that you would like to change.
There is no sin in thinking about something!!
The cult I was in taught me that if I didn't "obey" immediately, that I was sinning. I learned to make decisions so quickly that I had no time to think about what I was doing. That is not right. Anyone should have the choice to think about something. Even in the Bible, the Bereans were commended because they took time to think about what they were being taught (I don't remember where this verse is, you could google "Bible verse and the Bereans" to find out if you would like to-I know it is in the New Testament).
The cult I was in talked a lot about "proving how strong a Christian I was" by my actions. The religious group used this as a way to manipulate me. If the church was having an outreach on Saturday morning, and I wasn't feeling well, I was expected to go to the outreach no matter what. The leaders would say "Well, you must not really love God if you can't just tough it out for one morning."
They would extend this to everything. For example, if my grandfather had died and his funeral was at the same time as a church function, the leaders would say, "Wow, you must not really love God if you don't attend the church function. Who cares if your grandfather died, you know God is more important." Now, any normal person would be shocked that someone would suggest that you skip a funeral for a loved one. It is showing respect to a loved one who died, and showing love for the rest of your family still living, and showing love is a very Christian thing to do. But, when a church leader says it in this manner, they make you feel bad for wanting to do something a normal person or a Christian would do.
Then it becomes incredibly confusing and one wonders which end is up. I felt terrible for wanting to do normal things that as a human being and as a Christian I had every right to do. Like you, I felt guilty for even wanting to spend time with my family. It was painful and difficult, and I kept seeing my family anyway, but I felt so guilty about it. When I was able to leave, my family helped me a lot. They were there for me in a way that the people at the chuch were not.
I hope this helps you a little. Hang in there. Be kind to yourself. One of the things about cultic religious groups is that they tend to wear you out. Never let you get enough sleep (sleeping is not wrong!), keep you always busy, with never any time to yourself (because if you start thinking, you might want to leave, and they don't want that!). Do something small that you enjoy. I felt guilty about doing anything I remotely enjoyed or had fun doing. It took me a long time to realize it is ok and good to enjoy things.
Again, I would recommend "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse." Some websites in the U.S. that helped me are: "Recovering Grace", and you can google: "geftakys assembly" (the first website that pops up should be: Geftakys Assembly, this is the one you want to click on). This site has a lot of help for anyone, though it is based on a specific church. It explains spiritual abuse, has personal stories from people, and resources on how to heal. Just remember that you are not alone.
I'm sorry this is so long! I hope it helps. :-) I'm not going to post here again, but I hope the things I have mentioned may help you think about things in different ways. You may feel really scared when you try to think about something in a new way. That is ok. I remember literally feeling terrified when I tried to look at the things I was taught from another point of view. I leaned on other people I knew I could trust when I was scared. But, if it feels too overwhelming when you think about things, it is ok to stop too. If it bothers you too much, just take things slow. You get to make the choice of what to think about and how to think about it.
I would suggest not talking to your husband or anyone in your church about these questions that you have. In the religious cult, questioning something is seen as sin. So, if your husband knows you are questioning things, he might make your life harder. It might feel like you are hiding something from your husband, but you are simply giving yourself time to think about something. There is nothing wrong with that.
Your friend,
Rebecca
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Oct 24, 2014 19:19:58 GMT
Post by janine on Oct 24, 2014 19:19:58 GMT
Brownie,
I saw you visited us again today- so good to hear from you! Here is the last post a really helpful member of the board made- I believe you could benefit greatly from reading all of her entries.
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Oct 27, 2014 17:49:07 GMT
Post by brownie on Oct 27, 2014 17:49:07 GMT
Wow so much of what Rebecca shared made sense. I am tred of feeling stuck in the same place. I'm so sorry that I haven't been able to post in months and first thing out of my mouth is complaints. this life is exhausting. Question- IF I am part of a cult, I can't imagine my husband realizes this and would do the things he's dies.So why are so many of the things she posted also happening to me? Lack of sleep was a big one. Should I try and explain this to my husband that maybe we are part of a cult? Second question, so if I am part of a cult, what does that mean now? What about everything I have learned? Where do those things fit? Third question, is my husband really hurting me for no reason and everything I have gone through pointless?? IF he is hurting me then what now?? Where does one start? How do I know who to trust? Thank you once again for allowing me to ask these things. Feeling scared and lost Brownie
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janine
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Nov 2, 2014 0:39:38 GMT
Post by janine on Nov 2, 2014 0:39:38 GMT
Hey Brownie,
Those are very legitimate questions and I can understand why you ask yourself these.
How about you read once more, (or twice) the posts above this one from 'been there before'-- I found her replies very useful for your specific situation. I also believe that at this point you could really benefit from talking to a DV hotline and ask for a specialist for your specific situation. Since you have been in the community and situation you are in for so long, it might be very overwhelming to think about trying to leave again.
Again, please read her answers above again and follow her advice if you can and feel comfortable with it. And if I could find one argument that may help to not obsess about any questions left (because we will never have all the answers to all of our questions anyways) maybe focus on the fact that choosing to stay with him and the pastor and his 'lessons' and all that - means to choose to not be able to be a normal mom, and soon maybe grandmother.
I know how much your children mean to you and I wish you above everything else, that you can choose to spend the next ten years in freedom, peace and close to them-- and that you do not spend another decade like you have the last one-- because nothing will change and what has been for the last ten years, will be your next ten years.
Reach out to professionals, they will have experience with cults and also know how to help you find out if you are in a cult-community right now and how to maybe at least accept the open questions you have left unanswered- but still move on and make important decisions regarding your own freedom, and the relationship with your kids and future grandkids.
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