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Post by Janine 1984 on Mar 25, 2014 15:41:49 GMT
As my life is DV free in terms of dating abusive men- I still struggle to understand why I would date someone like I used to years ago.
What draws us to abusers? In my personal case I found a lot of similarities between my mother and my abusive Ex or in general my tendency to try and please a controlling person- instead of standing up and learning to say NO and be assertive.
In general I am wondering now if one could label what my mother and stepfather are doing right now is controlling and/or emotionally abusive. Short context- the last years have been rocky between me and my mother and stepfather but things got really heated when I briefly had to move back in with them after graduate school to apply for jobs. This is a common thing in my country and culture and almost all of my friends had to do this in their mid twenty's. I applied non stop and worked very hard to not get into my parent's way. A lot of things happened during that time I consider manipulative and controlling and I ended up leaving earlier to stay with a saver family member until I had found my first job.
Things like my mother taking my things from me and lying about having done so. Lying to my brother about my application process (telling him I dont apply much when really that was ALL I did, even staying in on New Years Eve to not waste money while job hunting) and refusing medical attention to me when I had a swollen lymph knot.
Now the hardest part for me- where Iam stuck - is to understand if I can allow myself to label my mother's behavior (especially) as abusive/controlling. I still seem to not be able - after all I have learned - to see through the very first abuser in my life. Her. And let go of her poison.
The situation right now is that i finally set up ground rules last year. My mother had sent me two "we love you soooo much, how are you blabla excuses" emails when I finally left their unhealthy home and when my answers were short and non-personal (I learned to not reveal my personal stuff anymore as she literally waits a long time to answer, then I can expect an email back where she copies and pastes my mail and replies in a very mean and critical way to each line I wrote. She ignored my birthday last year- after she hadnt send me postcards in more than ten years, even while I lived abroad or at home- yet when she missed an appointment with her hair stylist ONCE she went out of her way to get a "sorry" card in town and wiggled the card in my face and asked me what i thought of it. - nd after she ignored my birthday by not sending me even an email I got an email a few days later saying: "She is hurting too much and will now stop contacting me and needs to heal."
I was baffled. Not only had SHE repeatedly cried and made a big drama out of me staying with her a few months after graduate school (it really isnt easy to find a job right way even when you apply non stop) she also wrote me a letter back then saying I am welcomed as a guest but never to stay longer again. I could be welcomed for a day or two though. She wrote that letter while I was in the house in the bathroom and I found it when i came downstairs to the kitchen. I told her we can talk about it like adults and find a solution- she just cried and went upstairs to my stepfather to watch TV and refused to talk. That was the night I left.
It felt a lot like leaving my abusive Ex to be honest. After months of watching my every step - of being told I dont clean good enough like she does, I leave greasy fingerprints on her white designer shiny kitchen, of having to leave my suitcases packed by the door- only to be criticized how "ugly this must look for neighbors walking by the front door window so we covered it with a blanket" ...I could not take it anymore.
Now she was not only really NOT trying very hard to be a good mother after I had done what she wanted and left her house- she was accusing ME for the little contact we had. And called me a "victim and that my memories were false" (whenever I would try and explain why I dont trust her or hurt etc. and keep my distance) and when she talked to my boyfriend on Skype the first time she told him: "She drinks a liter of wine every night" which...was a lie. My boyfriend- a really good man I had dated for a few years by then- of course knew it was a lie. He didnt say anything to be polite but he did mention to me he was upset how she would lie to a stranger about me- to make me took bad for NO reason.
I finally told her-- after her BIG announcement how she would stop any contact now-- that I am interested in contact BUT insist we treat each other respectfully. I do not wish to be called "a princess for who nothing is ever good enough, a victim, the reason my mother is hurting, not good enough to ever have filled her shoes had I taken over her business, a little stupid, good for the soul but not useful in practical terms", etc..
She replied not by saying this is what she wants too as well. She only reacted very passive aggressively, made fun of my email by quoting me and then attacking every little detail. Even though my email had been neutral, positive and politically correct. She even criticized I didnt address them as "Mom and Dad" but as "Hey you" or "Hey you guys"
I couldnt bring myself to call them mom and dad at that time- after everything that had happened I simply did not feel as if I had parents.
Since then (this happened last summer) I made it my goal to remain who I am and stand by what i said I want. Neutral, respectful contact. I congratulated them both to their birthdays but got no reply. I received a mass email this past christmas saying " To all our dear friends"
To which i replied in a neutral, kind way. They wrote a few days later saying they would spend Christmas with my brother. I replied again friendly that this sounded great and I wished them a great time.
I havent heard from them since.
In my eyes- as much as I am hurting at times want to write them something " to make it better or show the my love- even though I dont even feel any love anymore after everything that happened' this is emotional blackmailing. To withdraw your contact from your own child - to not reply. It is so passive aggressive. I want to learn to not let it get to me- and I am getting better at it.
But I guess I still need reassurance that a normal mother (regardless of us all making mistakes and nobody is perfect) would not do this.
I feel as if me finally standing up and setting ground rules got her "uninterested" in me. As sick as this sounds. But I havent felt like a real daughter in years. She would say she loves me but then tell me the 50 cents it would have cost her to call me abroad Christmas years ago was too expensive. While she lives in an expensive downtown home with designer furniture and drives a huge VW - all paid for and with a lot of money in the bank.
By not replying and by telling me she doesnt know how to talk to me as she "didnt study positive communication"- hinting at my background in studying psychology as part of my masters- I feel as if she is just showing me now how much she REALLY cares. Not at all.
As painful as it is. But it is not disconnected from the abusive man I dated. When I had been abroad and was with the abuser and left- and the court date came up etc. she would not even call me once. She claimed later she was "too sad and couldnt stop crying and that it wouldnt have helped me"
She made it all about HER. As always. We would used to go clothes shopping when I was younger and she would always, always point out (even when it wasnt true) how men would look at us and then proudly announce to my stepfather how the "older men would look at her and younger men at me" for being attractive. I really couldnt have cared less. I wanted a nice mom- daughter day in town and NOT worry about who might look at us and might think we were pretty. Who am I to assume others would be so preoccupied with us anyways???
I guess I know all the answers.
This forum has been such a blessing to get away from abusive men but I still notice I am not abuse free. Having a mother like this makes me constantly fear I wont pick good men- even though I did after my abuser and my therapy.
But am I wrong assuming that a mother who ignores her child's emails is doing it to punish her child for speaking up and having an identity? I never ever used a bad word in any of those emails. I did not insult her. I just asked for respect, I explained why I was hurting and why I needed boundaries but was interested in contact with my parents.
It is almost as if she WANTED me out of her life but turns it around by pretending "I" wanted it. It is so not true. I also get the feeling if she could she would disown me but luckily my brother and I have a very healthy relationship and he would hopefully never let this happen. I am not the only one who struggles with my parents. My aunts on both sides go now years without talking to my parents. My one stepbrother has disconnected completely from them after they treated him very badly as well.
My sister in law feels as if my mother doesnt like her at all, she is constantly being criticized by my mother and my mother tries to get between my brother and her.
Oh man...thanks for listening. Once the road to abuse free life has kicked off- there is no stop.
I am so thankful to have learned about DV and abusive behaviors. I would not be as free and content and self reflective today. It is a long and painful road but to anyone stuck in abusive relationships I can only say it is WORTH it.
You end up cleaning your life like you would clean an infected wound. To heal it needs to be broken open, cleansed and then heal slowly.
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 26, 2014 17:47:42 GMT
Well, gosh! I think you answered our own question there. If someone else told you this story, you know what you would say. She sounds incredibly selfish, and seems to gain some perverse satisfaction by getting you upset. The lying, the put-downs, the attacks followed by the pleas for mercy and understanding because she was "so stressed" that she couldn't help herself - it's all straight out of Lundy Bancroft.
And as to your question, yes, it is more likely that those raised in abusive homes will be victimized, and also more likely that they will become abusive themselves. But I don't know that it means you'd be attracted to an abusive person, per se. I think it would be more likely that an abusive person would be attracted to you, because they'd see right off that you were vulnerable to their tactics and didn't see them as abusive or even unusual, since you're already used to being treated that way. It also makes the super-romantic attack easier, because if you're not used to being treated well, a person giving you the "princess treatment" feels really good and unexpected and may make you feel like "finally, someone really cares about me!" Believe me, they know this and look for these things in a partner, whether consciously or not. But now that you're educated, I would imagine abusive guys would run the other way when they saw you - you'd see right through their games.
I also wonder if it's harder to recognize genuine love if you've only experienced these distorted and tortured excuses for love in your family. I know my wife has a hard time with that. We've been together for 30 years and she still feels the need to "test" me and see if I really care about her. It is hard to ever feel secure when you had that kind of crazy-making in your early life.
And Stockholm Syndrome definitely happens to kids, even moreso than adults, I think. You really are dependent on your parents and have to figure out a way to cope, so you do what you need to do to survive, and tend to blame anything that's going wrong on yourself. It makes it easier for a kid to maintain a fantasy that if s/he did the right things, his/her parent would really love him/her. Of course, that is completely wrong, and it is the parents who need to change, but that is so hard for a child to see. There are kids here and there who somehow see that it isn't them, that their parents are the ones who are crazy, but they are rare without some good therapy.
It is very common that getting over an abusive partner means you have to face up to your childhood crap. Most of us have some to deal with. A good counselor who understands trauma can be a godsend. There are also support groups for children of abusive parents that can be really helpful.
It can also really help just to share the story. Sometimes when you read it over, you really see what is happening and may even wonder why you doubted yourself.
Thanks for sharing. I hope that helped a bit!
---- Steve
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Post by Janine 1984 on Mar 26, 2014 20:27:57 GMT
Thanks Steve...as always your reflection does help a LOT. I am actually seeing a counselor now to start a new set of therapy to deal with my mother. As much as I can see through abusive men these days I still have work left with her and the way she is acting nowadays.
It is crazy-making. I really like what you said about the "princess treatment" from abusive men. It is so true. The abusive men I dated years ago would be so charming and pretend to be so amazed by me and seemingly give me everything my mother did not. Even her "silent treatment" of me now that I am a grown woman is abuse. Her trying to make it look like "I" chose not to have contact and hurt "her"...it is SO hard to see where the roots are and not get pulled into this. I often question my own perceptions but ...OF COURSE I do. The woman tells me my memory is wrong and I only focus on the bad things and all parents make mistakes.
Combine that with the in-born guilt all kids carry towards their parents she was in a wonderful position to let her control wash over me. I often feel as if she WANTED me to fail. To enter a career I wouldnt want or enjoy. Just so I would never ever beat her success in her own private practice. What parent tells their own kid they "would never fill their shoes in their business" after all...I always felt a normal parent would have been PROUD if the child wants to go into the same direction.
What disgusts me is that they even went so far to LIE to me and tell me the profession I originally wanted with all my heart (Physical therapist) would "Die out and disappear due to changes in the health care system) I mean....this stuff is like a movie. With distance and more years on my back...wow.
I understand the situation your wife faces- I do feel I dont know what normal love is. A home where you can be safe and where your mother doesnt blow up at something or call you a lazy pig, stupid, never good enough, never clean enough, too fat (even though I always had a very slim figure), lost and confused (well yeah....it is kind of a self- full-filling prophecy isnt it...)
I always felt (and my aunt and sister in law feel the same way about my mother) that she doesnt love. That she plays emotions. She cries only to manipulate and get her way. And now I feel as if I am of no use to her that i have seen through her mind games and put my foot down and demanded a respectful contact. I am scared she will disown me some day too- just to lash out the final blow. I started to realize i dont even care if she does- what worth is money if you need to fear for maybe 20 or so more years what happens after she dies.
The control needs to end for good.
I cant WAIT to work in therapy and do so with professional support.
Thanks again Steve...it does help so much.
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 27, 2014 16:56:09 GMT
She sounds like a real gem. Makes my wife's mom look like Mother Theresa! And I agree - she does not understand love. To her love is possession and control. Interesting that she said that about physical therapy - it is actually likely to INCREASE in viability with our aging population and the increasing awareness that drugs aren't very helpful for chronic conditions over time. So not only was she mean, she was dead wrong. But of course, actually being correct is of little significance to someone like her. Having the necessary emotional effect is the only thing that matters.
It is also typical for them to "reject" their kids when you stop playing their games. My wife's mom took 7 years to accept that Ginny and I were a couple. She punished Ginny for it later on as well, with snide remarks about my lack of "ambition" (she wanted her to marry a rich businessman) and critiquing her parenting approach. I had a roommate we told about her. She said that she thought Ginny was exaggerating, but once she met her mom, she said she couldn't believe anyone was that mean, and that she was worse than anything we'd told her.
Interestingly, her mom wanted to go into business herself, but her dad wouldn't pay for her college unless she did a "woman's major" like teaching or nursing. She also experienced her parents' constant disappointment that she wasn't a boy as they'd wanted. So she had her crap, too. Unfortunately, she decided to pass it on to her own kids. I am glad Ginny made a different decision, as you clearly have. But it also means that you have to sit with a lot of the pain that your parents were avoiding. It seems horribly unfair, but it also seems like the only way to break the cycle.
You might be interested in reading some of Alice Miller's works, specifically, "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware." She really explains well how we pass on our childhood fears and pains to the next generation, and what we need to do to stop it.
Glad you're getting some therapy. It made my life totally different, and I really believe in it, as long as you have the right therapist for you. Let me know how it goes!
---- Steve
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Post by Janine 1984 on Mar 27, 2014 18:03:23 GMT
Wow, thanks Steve...you have no idea how I appreciate you taking time to reply.
I did read a few of Alice Miller's books but have just ordered this one you recommended and one book from Miller that the author of "Toxic Parents" recommended. I did read "Drama of the gifted child" and "Our bodies dont lie" - both also very good.
It is almost funny-sad how your wife's mother sounds a bit like mine. She would have this weird thing that she would tell me if I bring a new boy home - she would stare at him and if he would look away she would think he wasn't "honest" or so. So one time in 10th grade I brought my boyfriend at that time home and she stared hm down during dinner- I had warned him and he promised to not be the first to look away. I mean...looking back...wow. How SICK. We are humans, not dogs. I know dogs do that in order to establish hierarchy...but oh man.
I am looking forward to therapy and this time I chose an older male therapist who was recommended to me by two girlfriends. He is very experienced and I hope to be able to touch topics such as my abusive/alcoholic father and my controlling mother with his support. If it doesn't feel right I can change therapists at any time. But funnily my gut told me to go to him after my friend talked about him. I had researched a few female counselors in my city too but after a day worth researching settled back to choosing him.
Hah, and my mother also told me she thinks my boyfriend I had last time I saw them in 2012 was not good enough. She told me to stop dating this "American loser" and I should marry an engineer back in my home country. ... And during the one and only skype where he talked to her all she said afterwards was: "I dont like his beard." And I thought....well mother. He was there for me when you failed. He supported me through all my emotional ups and downs during grad school. He does long distance with me for over two years before we can live together again. He is respectful, caring, would never cheat, is calm and smart." -- but...all of that didnt matter to her and she just wanted to make sure maybe I end up like her. 3 husbands and all of them either cheaters, abusive and/or controlling.
It is funny you say that too- in my home country physical therapists are now more in demand than ever. I LOVED our big house in the countryside with the practice in it. I was very good with handicapped kids and grew up around them since my mother could work in our house in the separate part for the practice. She would often rub into my face how her patients told her SOOOO often that she was incredibly "patient and kind and wonderful and special" and she would talk non-stop with my stepfather (who feeds her every narcissistic need) about how "once she retires the doctors in the city would never be able to find such a specialized and amazing physical therapist to recommend their clients to" blablabla....and how the lady who eventually took the practice over "would never be as good as her and how she would HAVE to loan her last name to this lady so that the business kept on running....because she felt her name was" famous and known for her expertise in town."
Looking back I am glad I did not get her approval to run her business and that she lied to me and talked me out of the job. Even though I suffered for the past ten years from it by choosing a profession I hated but that she told me at 19 would be very, very good for me since "iam always sick and would get lots of vacation"
Funny fact - I had 3 sick days in my entire career. All only because I worked with small kids and they had a terrible stomach bug going around. My coworkers know I am strong and hard-working and would never think I am hurting inside so much.
My mother too was not allowed to study medicine or interpreting when she was young and her parents told her to do something more for 'women" and that was physical therapy at that time. She would often coerce my brother and me to do things we didnt want. She told him of he goes to college instead of doing auto mechanical engineer school (which he loved and still loves) she would pay for his 6 months at an American highschool as an exchange student during his school years. So he did. And he went to college and hated it and almost failed all his classes. It is a miracle he graduated and he has suffered several times from burnout in his current business man position. But....he can show mommy how proud she can be because ever since he makes a lot of money, she shows her approval to him again. Before he was just as much of a loser to her as I am now. Now she can show off her great "product" and extension of herself. He is just as neurotically clean, rich and caters to her every need.
It goes so far my brother abandons his wife and two little babies to fly to my mother's country and help her (she is 65 and very rich and lives in a nice townhouse in a city center of a modern western european city) to install her new cable TV.....i dont need to mention my brother's wife and my mother have an awful relationship.
Itll be nice to see how I can change my self-perception in therapy.
It is all connected with having dated abusive men- and I know I might always have to watch myself a little when it comes to dating. In a weaker period I might be drawn to the seemingly charismatic abuser-type- but....working hard to never let that happen.
I guess once you read "why does he do that" and "jerk radar" you dont ever go back to dating the same way.
I hope to meet this inner child in me soon and help her. If I look at how my mother treated me the past 10 years of my adult life...and others around her as well...I cannot begin to imagine how the little girl i was felt. Always lied to, manipulated, made felt like a sick failure, weak and lost. How happy she must have been when I did end up failing in life and she could run around and sob to neighbors and coworkers about how "she just wants me to be happy but is SO worried about me" - and has "an existential crisis" because I wanted to go to graduate school (uni is for free where iam from and i got a full scholarship) only to turn around and buying a brand new VW van shortly after I leave for school-- of course she didnt tell me she got the new car.
How sick Steve. I know the universe takes care of it. Karma does exist. Both my mother and stepfather have non-existent to fatal and awful relationships with very few members of our family. I am always invited with a big smile and my sister in law loves having me over. My aunt (my mothers sister) is an angel and we have had many many years of wonderful visits to one another (she doesnt talk to my mother at all and has had many times in her life not talking to my mother for years in a row even before i was born)
I am so glad your wife was strong to break away from her mother's control. It is funny how some of my friends and neighbors would say the same about my mother....that they couldnt believe how bad she really was and how mean she really was. It'll be interesting to see what happens when my stepfather passes away- or she does. Both have successfully hurt everyone around them and have had open wars with their neighbors on both sides. They live far from my brother and stepsister, who are the only ones who kind of keep in touch. I assume my mother would move to where my brother lives and then disinherit me since "i wasnt there to take care of her but my brother was"
all the while my brother risks his marriage and time with his kids because his mother treats him like a partner, not son. I remember when we were little my brother always had to babysit me- and she would also use him to console her when she had her regular sobbing events- when she would sit at the dinner table in the middle of the house and cry her soul out- for NO reason. He would sit next to her, hug her (at a very young age) and tell me to go to my room as "he knew how to handle this"
thanks again.....
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 28, 2014 17:22:02 GMT
The similarities between your mom and Ginny's are eerie! I sometimes think the real reason she resented me was because she was worried I'd "tear the veil" and help Ginny see what she was all about. Which I did, so I guess she was right after all. Too bad for her. But I think these people suffer constantly and are never happy. They must not be, or they would not get such satisfaction out of dragging others down.
Good luck to you and your "inner child!" I know you're on the right path - you give such great guidance to those on the Board, it is clear you understand this area so very well, I know you will find your way through. Therapy is painful, but it is SO worth it in the end!
---- Steve
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Post by Janine 1984 on Mar 30, 2014 20:52:19 GMT
Thanks for the kind words!!Yeah I can see how Ginny's mother would be afraid of someone who changes the family dynamics when she was used to be in control etc. Once we learn we cannot change others and focus on ourselves it does get easier. I too got the feeling my mother suffers and is never happy like you mentioned. When I stayed with her briefly at age 27 for a few months after graduate school I realized how I would never want to live like her. She was having constant serious fights with my stepfather and one night I remember coming out of the shower and hearing them downstairs arguing. They are both 65 now and have been married for a while- and while I stood there upstairs trying to be quiet I felt like a 5 year old who overheard her parents fight.
My stepfather had been punishing her and me by not talking for one or two days - which he used to do a lot anyways-- and my mother had grabbed his favorite vase and threatened to smash it on the ground if he wouldnt talk.
We are talking about educated people in an advanced age- both went to Uni and had good careers and live in a paid off, expensive townhouse. And yet I felt like this could have been a movie about meth addicts in trailer parks the way they communicated and threatened. My mother has mentioned divorce a lot over the years and I remember her crying about imagining a future with him in a smaller house once they retired at 63 and she would go on long walks with me to complain non-stop about my stepfather. I also hated how she would tell me from a very young age on about their sexual life in a very detailed way and...it never felt right.
Your child is your child. Not your friend, not your caretaker. We would go on longer summer holidays when I was little and once when I was 13 or 14 we flew abroad for 3 weeks and did a roadtrip. The trip was fine except she would "joke" how "I am a little bit stupid" -- i dont even remember what that was about and one day I felt so disgusted by both as they asked me to leave the hotel room (some nights we got a room for three and some two rooms, depending on the hotel) to "have some privacy"... I felt like an idiot going to the shitty hotel inside pool- very well knowing they wanted me to leave the room to have sex.
I didnt even want to go back to see them after that but of course had no choice. And when I did go back they pretended to be "reading" books. I dont think normal parents behave this way. I hope not. I hope normal parents can fucking wait to have sex when they travel with their kids and go two weeks without it out of respect or find a more sensitive way to deal with it.
Yeah that therapy will be good...man i cant even believe I STILL am not sure if I can label my parents abusive. Even though when I read my entries here and see how others react to my memories is obvious...ah well.
Time, good therapy and the wish to heal.
Thanks again....
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Post by Finally Free on Apr 13, 2014 3:07:39 GMT
Wow Janine do we have the same mother??? It is abuse, control etc from your mother and my therapy so far has explained to me that the reason I havent noticed the early warning signs from abusive men is because I was brought up in a very controlled and abusive environment so signs that would scare the hell out of some girls I didnt even notice. I feel so angry at myself that I have had 3 abusive relationships. I have completed The Freedom Program via Safer families and its completely changed my thoughts on first meeting someone, I am starting counselling at my doctors also just to make sure i can deal with all this abuse in a positive way. As for my mother, she sent me a birthday card after 9 years of not seeing her saying 'my door is alway open' and for some reason I thought id try again with her...big mistake, she was 'nice' for about 2 months, started trying to control me to the point I needed someone to housesit for 1 hour whilst police installed an alarm system and I return home to find she had been in every single drawer and cupboard in my house and read all of my mail, this was just the icing on the cake, there had been a few episodes before that. I didnt lose my temper I just calmly said it wasnt appropriate to do that of course her reply was 'how dare you speak to me like that' and I havent seen her since!! You know what, it just isn't healthy to have that kind of relationship in your life, mother or not...sure its sad and I wish i'd had 'normal' parents but i didnt, I feel very alone when i hear of my friends talking about their mothers and fathers etc, but i know one thing, I dont feel over burdened, depressed and stressed when she not around, sad but true x
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 13, 2014 15:23:56 GMT
Wow, your mom sounds like a piece of work! It is very hard when we have to set limits with our parents and they reject us - often makes us feel as if there is something we've done wrong or that we're just bad people. I think it's because when we were little our lives were literally in danger if we were rejected by our parents, so we could not afford to upset them. But it's good to be an adult and know you're not dependent on them any more. Good for you for having the courage to break it off with her! Not everyone can do that, and I know it is very painful, but sometimes the pain of having them in your life is less than the pain of cutting that bond.
Therapy can be a lifesaver, can't it?
Welcome!
---- Steve
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Post by Janine 1984 on Apr 13, 2014 17:53:36 GMT
Hey Finally Free, oh man yeah i understand that so well. It is hard to go thinking: wow, so and so many years have passed by without spending time with my MOTHER...but I get better at understanding I did not make her the way she is, I did not make her choose a path where most of her family resents her and I did not ask her to abuse her own daughter emotionally and project her own issues onto her child. I did not ask to be born and I did not ask to want NORMAL things like...a mother who loves you, who values you, who is interested in contact with her daughter etc. Seeing how she has treated me aunt, sister in law and other people like neighbors etc. and how she talks behind their backs makes me realize her issues were born LONG before I was. Some magic force in the universe allowed me to see through the abusive men I used to date years ago to dare to question my mother. It is a gift. A painful one but...id rather learn now what is the root of my shame and self doubt than feeling like I am not good enough for the rest of my life. We - much like everyone else- deserve our own love and care. It comes in waves and the therapy I started 3 weeks ago is starting to dig up the "stuff"...which is painful, relieving, interesting and bitter sweet all at the same time. I chose a male counselor this time -compared to my fabulous female counselor I got by luck after I went into counseling after my abusive relationship years ago. We will see how this plays out and I definitely see how I approach him with care- yet trust but also aware he needs to "earn" my trust and I hope he doesnt turn out to be a narcissist/abuser himself-- as I really am committed to healing and need a good counselor to be my guide in this work I have to do. And it is time I open up to normal males in life and understand there ARE normal men and I am capable of making good - informed choices. After I left the abuser- I found a good man a while later much like you mentioned in another post and I too wondered when he would show his wolf inside. 4 years later...he never did he is a wonderful man inside and out and even though we met the end of our relationship in between due to me moving abroad-- he did teach me I make great choices! And there is such a thing as feeling safe, loved, cared for, understood...well i guess....NORMAL human behavior I too feel the pain when I see others with normal parent/child relationships and understand what I missed out on. Like you mentioned it is painful but....mother or not, it is NOT healthy to have that kind of relationship in your life. Period. We may not have been able to choose who gave birth to us but we are able to say NO to anyone who does not contribute to a healthy and safe environment we live in now. And yes Steve...therapy can be such a lifesaver. I do hope my new therapist turns out to be a good working partner for my goals right now- but any doubts ill certainly run by here should they come up. It is a challenge I chose to try a male counselor. And it feels right so far. The freedom program you mentioned sounds very good - I am glad you got a positive experience out of it!!! I also wonder- the reason why we fell for abusive men might be that we learned a wrong type of bond. My bond to my mother was not that of a trusting daughter/mommy. I used to think that. I guess we all do....realizing the people you used to need the most were not ready for the job of being a parent- is...devastating to say the least. The worst part of that realization is over for me now but I know there is a lot of work for me left on the anger and self doubt inside. Having my mother's sister- my aunt- on "my" side makes it easier. She has been an "informed witness" as she has known my mother the longest and even before I was born there were many- many sick situations with my mother. My aunt can confirm for me the things I question and it is a gift....i am so grateful for that and for her being the loving aunt she is. My aunt also has a wonderful and healthy relationship with her son and his family...and it shows how things carry on to the next generation. It is just plain sad that my sister in law dreads my mother's visits and that she never once thought about visiting my mother because it would just be too much. My mother tries the guilt trip with my sister in law and brother by complaining they dont see "their" grandkids enough. And that they have special children's toys and bikes in their garage ready and waiting for them to visit soon. (its been almost 4 years since my niece has been born and my sister in law has NO interest in going to visit my mother anytime soon) and funny and sad thing is- a few years ago while i just moved back to europe from graduate school abroad- my mother had dumped my last two boxes of personal stuff from her garage onto my aunt's front door, without warning or asking if she could do so. She did that because she knew my aunt had closer contact with me. she did not tell me or ask ME. and now they pretend to be these "caring" grandparents when really...they never even started to think about becoming better PARENTS. but such is life sometimes and these people choose their path. thanks for understanding and being out there it helps so much.
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finallyfree
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He's been found guilty....feeling great!!
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Post by finallyfree on Apr 13, 2014 19:48:10 GMT
Hi again, I was so pleased to see replies as I only joined in the early hours of this morning, couldnt sleep and started looking for pages on help and support and found this one. I cant have my mother in my life anymore as she just caused too much negativity in every way possible. The little therapy ive had so far is confirming that the control and abuse I was used to in my childhood is the reason I have not noticed these signs in others and ran a mile like others!! God i have so many stories about my life lol, especially with my mother. My first abusive relationship was at aged 19yrs, the guy in question brayed me head off the pavement and came into my house as my mother said to him 'no point in fighting, I know shes fiery, just go to bed you can stay here', I forgave him thinking it was all my fault that I didnt want food that night, then a week later after going to visit his new flat in London, he locked me in it, no home phone and before anyone had mobiles, I wasnt allowed to go to the loo, go in the bath etc without him next to me. I eventually gave in to all and managed to get away, I came home to my mother who said, 'i dont want to know whats went on, you have brought this on yourself, now its time to move on'. My step father was a much better role model than my real father who abandoned me and my sister. During that time my mother had many men over to the house and went out alot leaving me and my sister with undesirables, so as long as she could go out. My mother made sure that my relationship with my step dad was separated as much as possible as we had became close, rather like any friends or family she was jealous of for getting close to me, she would name call and place thoughts into peoples heads to cause a rift. She threw me out of the house at aged 17yrs for missing a lesson at college, she didnt ask why etc I came home and was attacked then thrown out with the clothes on my back, any normal mother im sure wouldve asked why, i couldve then explained that due to being sexually abused as a child I was now suffering from panic attacks!! The list goes on, again and again I have forgiven her, and every time she has let me down, telling me what a mess I looked, how my friends were much prettier infact even on my wedding day as I left the house feeling happy she said 'you look a bloody mess, I hate your hair'. I married an abuser, left him for a policeman who was a worse abuser than my first husband.....the ultimate betrayal. I have 3 court cases coming up and my other is the main witness for my stalking case, she has told officers she isnt going, infact her words were 'I am not going due to the rift between my daughter and me, of course should that change I am almost sure I can go'....which means I go and see her and put up with it all or else....i not going to see her, mother or not, witness or not, I will keep fighting without her help. The Policeman dealing with the case said to me that he feels even if she did go she wouldnt be helpful to my case and he said as your mother is very controlling herself she has empathy for your ex. I am positive one day and drained the next, ive cried reading both of the replies here as its a comfort but also a sadness I feel (
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janine
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Post by janine on Apr 14, 2014 2:02:36 GMT
hey you, oh man yeah that really is the ultimate betrayal- to get away from one abuser, only to realize you end up with another. especially if that person is working in law enforcement like you said your ex the policeman was. if we lack something at home growing up i think it is very normal to seek it outside of ourselves and our homes- just because we want to be loved and seen so badly and crave approval like all human beings. the upcoming court case must be very scary at times! at least i remember mine to be a very stressful experience and iam glad you have started counseling. having a health professional walk through this with you can be such a lifesaver. for me it is also a day to day game with my mother and how i feel. some days i dont even think about how sad iam that ill never have that normal family and about the things she took from me by being so controlling and now neglecting. but....at least they taught us how we DONT want to be...every person is a teacher really. i guess in the end once we acknowledge that hurting inner child inside of us we can start to comfort it...heal the wounds and be our own parents. in fact one of the exercises iam doing to heal is some sort of mantra i repeat to get through tough moments when i feel shame and guilt for not having a normal family. and it reminds me that im loved and that healing comes from within....that i give myself everything i need and that anything on top is just icing on the cake! not the cake itself hang in there and let us know how the court things are coming along if youd like to. we are here to listen and im sure plenty of us here have had similar experiences and can relate
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finallyfree
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He's been found guilty....feeling great!!
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Post by finallyfree on Apr 14, 2014 11:32:16 GMT
Thanks janine1984 it means alot having people understand, you talk to friends etc and they do try but unless youve lives like this no one can ever really know the immense pain it causes
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Post by Janine 1984 on Apr 14, 2014 17:52:07 GMT
I couldn't agree more! It helps so much to just know someone understands what this really means. To date an abusive partner or deal with a dysfunctional parent. The hard part for me is to deal with new people who come into my life who might say something: But ...she is your MOTHER. It is the same as if an abused woman gets to hear: BUT....he is your HUSBAND. And boom...comes the shame and guilt and we go back into the hamster wheel, running until we are exhausted and hoping we can change things.
I dont know how you feel about your mother- but I do go through phases. Sometimes I dont think about my parents at all, then I get angry or sad or when I am in a very good and strong mood I might even feel "ready" to be the better and kinder person and write them. But-- "luckily" they took that burden off of me when they did not agree on wanting to build a relationship with me that was based on respect and patience. They simply try and torture me now with the silent treatment and by not reacting to kind birthday messages from me or my last Christmas email.
I am both- longing for a loving mom and dad but at the same time aware I will NEVER have that. And I have to be my own mom/dad now- if that makes sense. The pain my mother and stepfather cause me whenever I do let them closer is too much and not worth it. It is like a brutal game of chess. I have to be ready to predict every move, watch my every word and I know my sister in law feels the very same way when my parents visit her and my brother.
She is always waiting for the next critical comment, the next blow, the backstabbing and gaslighting.
That just is NO way to live. It is exhausting and self torture to keep running back to the person who gave birth to me and wanting a love she will never want to be able to give me.
In counseling right now we focus a lot on shame. I believe there is so much shame involved when there is abuse. Be it with a husband or anyone else. We feel as if we failed as partners or daughters and believe somehow we might have caused or deserved this. Which is simply not true. I try and see the upside of healthy parents my friends have- I envy them and feel sad that I dont have a mother who was interested in sending me postcards or care packages when I lived abroad for many years- not even one postcard. But I also appreciate the fact i can say: "You have a problem mother and I am not the one who caused it and I deserve to be better treated than what you throw at me with your self hate and endless criticism and narcissistic demands!!!!"
I can recommend you a good book on the topic that talks about these dynamics in romantic relationships but also parent/child-- it is called "The wozard of OZ and other narcissists." by Eleanor Payson and "Will i ever be good enough" by Dr Mc Bride
Many times throughout those books I said out loud: Yes...this is HER....oh man. ....and sighed out of relief.
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finallyfree
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He's been found guilty....feeling great!!
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Post by finallyfree on Apr 14, 2014 19:06:43 GMT
OMG that is exactly how I feel, ive never known anyone else feel or understand what its like. I dont think so much about them and then suddenly I do and im back to guilt same as you, I long for something thats not available to me, Ive tried to contact my dad over the years and he doesnt bother to reply now, lives in another country and i'll probably never see him again, I know I have abandonment issues. And even today my mother has pushed mail through my door which has accidently gone to her house and of course it was opened, its been a tough day ever since then, just reminds me of all the pain and hurt. Ive been very miserable and felt to repulsive today, try explaining that to people. I will try that book for sure and thanks for your reply, it really helps me alot,
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janine
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Post by janine on Apr 14, 2014 20:37:03 GMT
Yeah my mother could pull off something like that with the mail like you mentioned. I think what is important to keep in mind is that THEY choose to act the way they do. Their behavior is not a reflection or reaction to who WE are but rather shows how THEY are. I struggle with that for sure. I mean....who wouldn't? Like Steve mentioned a parent has so much power and influence on a child and as the main caretaker in the early years this HAS to leave marks. Positive and negative ones. My biological father was abusive and left us when I was about 4 or so and I never really heard back other than a drunk dial once and a few very confusing messages he forwarded via my brother. I couldn't care less. These people don't act like adults or parents. Much like an abuser they ask of their own kids to open their arms and be the caretaker of THEIR problems and emotions. I believe it is because they never identified their own issues or solved them. I think it'll always be hard at times. I struggle with thoughts like: What if one of them dies or has a stroke? But then I always also feel like I have tried. I can only do so much and am not the manager of the universe. And in a way it is also nice to know I do NOT have so much power that would enable me to make anyone feel terrible! They choose to ignore my kind emails and they chose to become even more passive aggressive when I set boundaries and they felt I played victim and have a "bad memory"-- It must definitely be a trigger to know your mother got your mail and opened it - even though it is private and then she just pushes it through your door. Maybe you can set up a mail forwarding request? Most countries offer that. You pay for 6-12 months and any mail that might be sent by accident to her house will be forwarded to your place. You can then see what companies or friends still use the wrong one and inform them about your address you would like them to mail the post to. My mother complained once when I was abroad for graduate school that she had to collect my mail. It was hard because here I was living far from home and seeing all the other international students get care packages, postcards, flights home for Christmas (she could have afforded that easily but found even one call was too expensive) and none of them had to worry about that their post would go to their parents. Some people might have been better off never having children if anything involved causes them too much of stress and sacrifice. I guess it helps to find balance- between revisiting old wounds and taking care of them but also giving yourself a LOT of gratitude for having left abusive men for having been brave to ask yourself if what your parents did or do was ok. It is the hardest thing in life to wonder if the people who should love and care the most abandon you or punish you with manipulations etc. really do not care or love deep down. It leaves me feeling very empty at times inside. Like part of me wants to scream at my mother: Why did you make it all about YOU when my abusive ex attacked me and I had to go to court? why did you say it hurt YOU so much that you couldnt even give me ONE phone call? ? And then cry in front of your friends and me once I returned home and we had to help YOU to get over MY abuse??? But they cannot ever and wont ever change or understand or give the love and the reassurance we need. If they would- many of us wouldnt date abusive men or repeat patterns in relationships that arent healthy. Most days I am grateful to hear the awful things my mother does to my sister in law and aunt and it reminds me the issues do NOT belong to me and in my life. My task is to live a good life. But counseling was needed for sure to get really into a real healing mode. Because yes, my mother could die any day and so could my stepfather. I will NOT carry this guilt and shame any longer. I behaved in an adult way and offered a respectful relationship and they declined and it is a gift they did. It is not always easy to find a new viewpoint and angle and see how there are blessings in disguise in this too. Yes, it would have been SO much easier for me to live so far had I had a normal home. But I found out now that things werent ideal and my words can help others -- and I can enjoy life from now on sooo much more. And find out who I really want to be. Those are gifts. And the lesson learned is that if I ever have kids on my own- ill make damn sure to send them postcards and call them when they study abroad. I will visit them and I will also apologize when I realize I did wrong. I will not tell them lies about the profession they choose and I will not call them "stupid, not good enough, weak, never able to fill my shoes" -- because that is mental abuse and not right. My mother will never have the experience of really loving herself or others. That is her curse and destiny and not mine. I often wonder how I would attend her funeral one day. I will refuse to feel guilt over these last years when the relationship between us changed because I set boundaries and dared to say NO to her. Even though many family members feel like I do there are some friends she has fooled for years with her charming "front door" behavior. Those can believe what they want. They do not know her true face. I hope you can find peace today after the letter incident -- and maybe do something you love. Like a hot bath or walk, or a movie you enjoy or favorite dinner. On days like those we need to be extra kind to ourselves. They will never do it. Last year when my mother ignored my birthday and sent me an email a few days later stating she would now want to heal herself and gives up on contacting me (even though I had always remained polite in emails but also refused to cross boundaries and open up to her about personal things that were deeper) - i felt so empty. So afraid and worthless and ashamed, guilty and useless. A real mother would NOT make you feel this way. Much like a real man would never make you feel this way.
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finallyfree
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He's been found guilty....feeling great!!
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Post by finallyfree on Apr 14, 2014 22:26:55 GMT
Hi Janine 1984, I cant see your reply on this page but was able to find it on your profile.....thanks so much, you are writing exactly how I feel about it all, its so strange and comforting that im not alone in this. I do feel better now ive had a nice time with my daughter and the main thing is to come out of all this abuse im a fab Mother, i can say that proudly, I learned big time from my own Mothers behaviour that I never wanted my own child to feel any way I had, people comment regularily on how close we are and she nearly 13 yrs now and we always cuddle and say we love each other. All the love ive ever had has gone into her, she knows she is loved thank god. I feel angry today knowing my Mother has been to my door and found out where i live, as ive only recently moved, pushing the letter through my door is her way of letting me know, another part of control !! I know I will get there but I feel so up and down, dont know if i coming or going...
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janine
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Post by janine on Apr 15, 2014 1:34:48 GMT
Oh man, yeah especially if she didnt know where you moved it is a HUGE sign she is angry that she lost control but tries in her childish way to get it back. A grown up person would have maybe called to say your mail got there and how she can give it back to you by asking for YOUR opinion. They say something good comes out of everything- and I am glad your daughter and you work on a whole different level. I often think these people waste so much precious lifetime by spreading their self hate all over. When I am sad about myself or angry at myself I STILL manage to be kind to others and not let it out on them. And I learned to expect that from my mother now as well. The up and down ride you are describing is probably a phase- I usually feel worse after contact with my mother- direct or indirect. That brings it all back up and I am just glad to explore more of it with professional help in counseling. I need an ally in this other than most if my family members who also struggle with my mother or my friends who love and understand my choices- but who may not really understand what it was like to grow up with such a mother. All we can do is take it day by day and often I find the fear I have BEFORE something happens or not is way way worse than the actual event. I often picture myself being cold and hard the day I meet my parents again. So that none of their condescending looks and critical comments get to me. My sister in law and aunt mentioned the other day that whenever my mother and stepfather are anywhere (or have been as they dont really visit anyone anymore) they will give each other those "knowing" looks in front of everybody just to make sure they both agree on how less good and worth everybody else at the table is. It is like a weird freak show really. I often wondered if she was proud to have had such an easy target like her daughter and if she enjoyed my pain and struggles. Like the times she would go through my stuff and throw my favorite doll away when I was little and in school without asking me for permission - or throw my favorite shirt away when i was 25 and came home shortly after a stay abroad. Or how she would not even consider a stupid IKEA bag good enough to give me and toss all of my rest stuff at her house into a garbage bag which she then dumped at my aunt's house without asking my aunt for permission to do so. It is very sick. And it sounds your mother is using similar tactics. What helps me on days when it all gets to me is a long, hot shower. Some chamomile tea, some rescue remedy drops (all natural plant based from Bach Flowers) and then an early sleep. It is all easier in the mornings somehow. Maybe you and your daughter could go on a fun short trip together to get a 2 day break or so -- whenever time allows it. Hang in there. We made it so far-- we will finish the race and hopefully forget over time that there was ever such a race and see through the big persona our mothers wanted us to believe they were. It is really like the wizard of OZ. Here I feared my mother my entire life and compared myself to her -always feeling like a failure. And if I walked up to her now to lift the curtain, like Dorothy did in the movie-- Id find a frail, old woman. Angry at herself and I would find out the way to my own home was always with ME --- (Dorothy's shoes) and I had the power to go where I wanted. I got that metaphor from the "Wizard of OZ and other narcissists" book and found it a nice image to think of when my mother gets to me. Since I have a bigger birthday coming up next month I am slowly preparing for that one too. My counselor booked me in the day after for an appointment...which will be needed -- that or my mother sends a simple- non political email for my birthday for which I then shall reply neutrally and kind--- like I always do. That would be best case scenario. I might also not get anything -- or something mean. Or passive aggressive. Ugh...the anticipation is often the worst though. How nice it must be for other daughters to look forward to seeing their mothers and to feel cared about and loved!!!
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finallyfree
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He's been found guilty....feeling great!!
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Post by finallyfree on Apr 15, 2014 10:28:41 GMT
...you know wizard of oz is on my top list of fav movies lol
So your mother threw away your precious things also without permission, god they are so similar its unreal, its took a long time to realise they are the ones needing alot of help, of course y mother cant be wrong about anything so she could never seek help !! I think about what happens if she dies etc, but ive tried so hard, I still love her but dont like her...
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janine
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Post by janine on Apr 15, 2014 14:54:32 GMT
It is a cute movie with a nice theme I find- the way the author build the storyline into her book worked for me. I kept imagining I really do have the key (the shoes) for my own happiness and cannot want it from anyone else I might consider all knowing and stronger. Hehe and yeah,my mother would NEVER admit she did something wrong. And she will attack back in all possible ways if you DARE to criticize. It is just....not fun at all to be around her hahaah unless you admire her and tell her how great she is and do what she wants when she wants it. I like the idea of loving her but not liking her. I have started to think I do not even love my mother anymore. I am thankful for life, for the good things she did- which were mostly material as in clothing us, food on the table, help with education. But almost no emotional support whatsoever. And money was often used to manipulate us. She would give us a gift, then cry a little time later about how she has "an existential crisis" because I did not find a job or master's program as fast as she wanted. But as soon as I moved out- my brother (not her of course) would me how she bought by herself this 90.000 dollar brandnew car. When we are talking about me coming home from an abusive partner and going through court etc. and the thought of letting me stay with her for 3 months to get back on my feet was too much to ask as a child. She also asked my brother and me once to write down who cost her more. Yeah. I let that one settle in for some time and my brother and I had a long discussion about it-- and even though he makes excuses for he he did put his foot down on this one. He is 8 years older than me and her thought was that i must have cost her more than him somehow- which wasnt even true. But that was right after I had gotten her ok to go to grad school (on a full scholarship) and she would give me a small monthly stipend (half of that was from my biological father who had to pay child support in my country up until I finished a grad school degree-- hooray to the lawmakers who came up with that!) I think we all need to find a way that is good for US to deal with any abuser in our life. It is too easy for others to tell me: oh god your mother is a monster and witch. she doesnt deserve your love. I can understand why my stories would make a friend say that but...they dont understand why iam hurting so much inside at times. the little child in us may always naturally hope for mom to be MOM...and not this confusing, furious manipulator who mixes love in with hurtful messages and actions. And I am glad we both in the end managed to see through this and started to learn what real love is about!!! And how a normal relationship looks like. Way to go
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